If Bruce Lee can be the father of MMA, Gordon Doversola is the GrandFather of MMA!
In my opinion (based on my experience,) Bruce Lee was not the ‘father’ of mixed martial arts but was certainly a leader in the movement toward popularization of this great sport and art. I’m not a martial arts historian, but ‘mixing’ arts has been around for a long time – before Bruce Lee even became popular.
And if Bruce Lee is the father of MMA, then Shihan Gordon Doversola is Grand Father to Mixed Martial Arts (and Grand Master of Okinawa-Te Karate as well).
Some have mentioned to me about how ‘new’ MMA is. Well, it isn’t really ‘new’ – its just getting more popular and commercialized.
Just research Kajukenbo and “The Black Belt Society” for information that MMA was around for a long time. It is not a new thing.
Well, what is Kajukenbo?
KA – Karate
JU – Judo and JUJITSU
KEN – Kenpo
Bo – Chinese Boxing
When the Gracie’s brought Brazilian Jujitsu into the public eye, people were fascinated. They started to mix striking, shoot fighting, and ground fighting together in order to be a more, well-rounded pit fighter or cage fighter.
I studied, in my opinion, under one of the greatest Mixed Martial Arts instructors of our time: Gordon Doversola – Grand Master (Shihan) of Okinawa-Te Karate. I won’t get into the loose or mythical history of his legendary style, but it was ‘the forerunner’ to MMA!
There are unverified connections that Gordon Doversola was related in some way to Kajukenbo. And in my opinion, the style Shihan Doversola taught was a very aggressive, forward moving (in fighting style as well as “martial artistry”), and refined combat style that still carried martial arts tradition. There was always a ‘warrior’ mentality as an Okinawa-Te Karate (OTK) practitioner.
Gordon Doversola’s “Okinawa-Te Karate” should not be confused with other “Okinawa Karate” styles. Shihan Doversola’s Okinawa-Te Karate is ‘his own’ and not affiliated with any other Okinawan style or organization. I can even go as far as saying, it (OTK) was (and still is) revolutionary. But it was also ‘quiet’ and never hit the mainstream, commercialized, moneymaking “take your dough karate” type of ‘business’.
There are only a fortunate few who have studied OTK, and yes, only a fortunate few who have actually studied under Gordon Doversola.
I, for one, studied Okinawa-Te with Shihan from 1985 to 2000. I had brief “trial type” experiences as a kid in other systems which included: Shotakan Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Ed Parker’s Kenpo (mostly at the YMCA or from friends studying karate). I never lasted more than a couple of months in any because my mom wasn’t going to pay for karate. But finally, at the age of 18, I walked into this small dojo in Atwater Village, CA and my jaw dropped. Just ask any Okinawa-Te black belt- they’ll probably tell you the same story. “We” never saw anything like it in our lives!
I remember that night – a Friday Night to say the least. Okinawa-Te fighters know what Friday Night meant.
I was a skinny 120 pounder and Shihan asked me a bunch of questions about what I was studying in college, telling me he loved pancit and lumpia (Filipino noodles and eggrolls), and a little small talk. Then he asked me if I wanted to train. I just said I was there to watch my friend (Sensei Andre Khoury who was a green belt at the time) train. Shihan walked over to the shelf, pulled a white gi down, handed me a cup, and said: “Change” and pointed to the back. My first experience as an OTK student was to fight other OTK students. I was hooked.
He never ever asked me for money. He never gave me a payment schedule. He never asked anything of me except to train. Of course I paid him, here and there, but he never asked – I just paid whenever I had money – I was a poor college student at the time so I was very grateful. And he was like that with me till the day I last saw him. And that’s how I got started in MMA.
Famous 1970′s karate stars studied under Shihan. Jim Kelly and Joe Lewis (the martial artist) to name a few.
In fact, Jim Kelly, just recently, mentioned ‘our’ Shihan in an interview saying that even Bruce Lee had private lessons under Gordon Doversola.
Gotta smile just thinking about it. Hmm… Bruce Lee, the father of MMA took lessons from Gordon Doversola.
Whether it is true or not – one of Okinawa-Te ‘stars’, Jim Kelly, has claimed that Bruce Lee admired his fast backhand so much that he wanted to learn where he learned it. And Jim Kelly told him that (Shihan) Gordon Doversola taught it to him and later found out that Bruce Lee eventually took lessons from Shihan (in a 2010 interview).
Shihan never mentioned this to us but he did claim to have fought Bruce Lee at one point in his life. One night (late 80s) one of us asked, is he (Lee) really that fast? And Shihan, with a smirk and a wave of the hand leaned forward to us and said, “I was faster” and laughed.
So, if some say that Bruce Lee is “The father of Mixed Martial Arts” I’d have to say, Shihan, Gordon Doversola, is the Grandfather of MMA.
See the 2010 Jim Kelly Interview here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGTRugkyCFs
At the 7:00min mark he talks about training with Bruce Lee. At 8:00min mark he mentions Gordon Dovorsola training Bruce Lee.
So what is Okinawa-Te? Well, it was not designed for self-defense but for attacking. It is a very aggressive form of martial arts: Two-thirds of the techniques are for aggressive attacks and one-third for defense – with defense actually built into an attack. As Shihan explained to me many years ago, “we are not freight trains that go straight in – Okinawa-Te uses many angles of attack”!
Because of its non linear movements and ability to defend and attack from any angle, Okinawa-Te is regarded by many to be one of the most versatile systems in the world. The unique fluid, yet hard aspect of Okinawa-Te means that it is a suitable art for people of all levels. Whether wanting to learn a soft and graceful Kung Fu style martial art, or a strong and hard Japanese karate style, or a well rounded Ju Jitsu grappling style, Okinawa-Te is the bridge which connects and balances all aspects of the martial arts world. (Black Belt Magazine)
Note: I stopped training with Shihan soon after my son was born in 2000. The last time I saw Shihan was, I believe, in 2001. I brought my baby boy, Jacob, to meet Gordon. Later, I was called by my friend (Okinawa Te Black Belt Sensei Mike Pecina) to check out his school in Eagle Rock. I worked out there a couple of times and eventually; Sensei Larry Delano (Shihan’s very first black belt) administered a black belt test where I received my black belt. Witnessed by Sensei Pecina, Sensei Gordon and Grand Master James Ibrao (http://jamesibrao.com/). I now teach Okinawa-te and Armas de Mano in Monrovia, CA at Old Town Fight Club.
Header Picture was borrowed from 1965 Black Belt Magazine where Gordon Doversola and Okinawa-Te were featured.
Glenn is a former financial analyst, close-up magician, and hockey player. He is now a writer, novelist, screenwriter, 
If it wasent for Kelly, Your old school teacher,aka {I was faster than Lee} would have been lost in a stack of old black belt magazines that no one reads any more. Its so sad people talk shit about Lee who brought them business to the schools for many years intil the public wised up that tradional martial arts are bullshit. A lot of masters waited 30 years to talk shit about Lee in fear he might show up at there front door {as happen to fat james demile} Dana White the head of UFC said Lee was the father of MMA, not some karate dudes in eagle rock. Lee’S STUDENTS CHANGED the world of martial arts and inspired the best world class fighter on the planet, your teacher didnt. Not only does anyone know him, he hasent produced any world class fighters on any level, not even good point fighters. Your teacher taught you for free and I dont know anything good or sucessful for free, Even the worst fast food cost money. There are NO UFC, K-1 or WEC or pride fighters training in Okinawa te. Maybe they know something you dont.
“If it wasent for Kelly, Your old school teacher,aka {I was faster than Lee} would have been lost in a stack of old black belt magazines that no one reads any more. Its so sad people talk shit about Lee who brought them business to the schools for many years intil the public wised up that tradional martial arts are bullshit. ”
What’s your point? Yeah, you’re probably right. If it wasn’t for Kelly – Doversola probably would be lost in a stack of old black belt magazines? I don’t understand the point really. You’re right. But Who is talking shit about Bruce Lee. That part you are getting completely wrong from my post. I’m probably faster than Brock Lesner. I’m 5’5″ and could run around the big man for a while before he catches me. That’s not talking shit. Maybe Doversola was faster.
Aside from that – You make Good points. But I don’t know why you are so defensive about the whole issue. Dana White said Lee was the father of MMA – I don’t dispute that. But who is Dana White anyway? I mean, yeah, he’s the president of the UFC, but because HE said it doesn’t mean its true.
I don’t argue the fact that Bruce Lee did most than any other master in any martial arts. I have no problem saying that Bruce Lee was the father off MMA. I’m just stating the history of MMA – and it doesn’t just start with Bruce Lee. ie: Black Belt Society, KaJuKenbo for example.
That being said – I didn’t say Bruce Lee was NOT the father of MMA. I was simply saying, Gordon Doversola was the GrandFather of MMA – to some degree.
Bruce Lee hasn’t produced any MMA champions has he? So I don’t know what your point is. Jeet Kune Do is NOT a common ‘background’ for an MMA fighter when you see their stats. Is it? Its a mixture of arts and styles.
So your point, well taken, but still – I don’t get it. You want to say one thing about a Grandmaster of Okinawa Te producing fighters here’s just a few:
Gordon Doversola trained noteables (in the 60s/70s):
Jim Kelly (Claims Shihan Gordon Doversola for making him a world class fighter.)
Joe Lewis (Was taught to win tournaments using sidekick, backhand and reverse punch by Shihan)
Bill Wallace
Bob Wall
These guys – at the time were World Class Fighters. Grant it, its not MMA, but Shihan Doversola’s system was a MMA as far as a MMA is concerned.
Also nice to read Dan Millman (http://www.peacefulwarrior.com/) trained under Shihan.
What does Eagle Rock have to do with anything? It doesn’t matter where you are from.
Back in the early 70s, my older friends trained with Dan Inosantos in his garage. It could be Eagle Rock, Glendale, or Pacific Palasades for that matter. He’s a great spokesman for JKD and filipino martial arts and Kenpo – we can just as well call him a ‘son’ of MMA. And he and Doversola were friends.
And Kelly even gave props to Doversola and even said LEE trained with him. So who is talking SHIT about Lee? NOBODY.
Was Doversola faster than Lee – I have know idea. But I heard he was pretty damn fast.
Lets look at it this way. If it weren’t for Doversola – maybe Lee wouldn’t have the fast backhand he had that Kelly was using??? Maybe Doversola was faster than Lee – I don’t know. I wasn’t there. I just hear the stories.
Would Lee have done well in MMA? Heck ya. I have no doubt about it. Would Doversola have done well in MMA? Heck ya. I have no doubt about it.
I’d like to add – in order to succeed in MMA – its not about a single system. Its about applying different fighting styles, ground, standup, shoot, etc. That being said, nobody is training in a popular style like JKD and raising their hands with a victory in any of the organizations you mention.
I was at the interview.I put it together. second, many MMA guys bring in specialist from JKD to help them. Along with pro basketball players{Kobe Bryant} and many others that want there own image. A fast backfist doesent win fights. Ive worked for k-1, and spent 15yrs around the mayweathers and heres the bottom line, People who have the mind set will reach there goal no matter who teaches them. Bruce could have started in hung gar and made it. Roy Jones did everything wrong in training and look what he did. Desire is more important than anything else. And Dana White has changed the martial arts world forever. The average person walking the street knows two styles now because of UFC. every kid on the wrestling team wants to be a UFC fighter. Only jaden Smith want to be the karate kid and he went to Chan, not doversola.
I still don’t see your point. Fame doesn’t make you a better fighter does it? I’m not talking about popularity. The point I was making was there were others out there, before Lee, who were forward thinkers. They were ‘forerunners’ to modern karate.
We can say – pit fighting, brawlers, were the forerunners to MMA and we can go around in circles. I think you missed the point about my article – I’m not here to convince you or anyone else and go the ‘my dad is better than your dad’ argument. I’m not even trying to talk about populairty – i’m just saying, MMA didn’t JUST start with Bruce Lee – it started before him.
This is where the whole politics and standing on your highhorse saying, Oh, my ‘art’ is better than your ‘art’ argument like you seem to want to get into. I did NOT knock Bruce Lee – I simply tied him to someone else who was just as forward thinking just as he was – and maybe contributed to his own modernization of JKD and the martial arts world.
I had a conversation with a 5th degree JuJutsu practitioner who, in his mind, says MMA is NOT a ‘system’ or ‘martial art’. Its a sport. I didn’t argue – he has a right to feel that way. But he has a point – you don’t get ‘a belt’ so-to-speak as a Mixed Martial Artist.
Sure, they aren’t ‘seeking’ Doversola for roles like the Karate Kid – he’s not popular. But I stated before:
He trained championship fighters – and he was ALSO a choreographer for movies like Manchurian Candidate and other TV shows back in the 60s/70s. I don’t know why you keep trying to ‘discredit’ his contribution in the martial arts world when he did his ‘time’ so-to-speak.
And speaking of the Karate Kid – Doversola worked a little with Martin Kove in Karate Kid II and Steele Justice…
There isn’t alot of Okinawa te pratitioners out there. Its unfortunate, but that’s just the way it is.
That’s GREAT that fighters are bringing in JKD instructors to help them out. Its a good way to fit the Okinawa Te back hand into their repertoire. Thanks for bringing that up.
I think I make my point very clear in my first parapgrah: “Well, in my opinion (based on my experience,) Bruce Lee was not the ‘father’ of mixed martial arts but was certainly a leader in the movement toward popularization of this great sport and art. I’m not a martial arts historian, but ‘mixing’ arts has been around for a long time – before Bruce Lee even became popular.”
I don’t know why you’re trying to argue something where there shouldn’t be an argument.
Most kids don’t even know Jim Kelly. Having interviews like that and getting it spread is a great thing for the history of martial arts. Again, most new martial arts practitioners don’t even know Jim Kelly and how popular he was in the 70s. But that does NOT make him any less great does it?
Nicely put Glenn! Who the heck is this guy to trash a martial arts great like Shihan Gordon Doversola? Apparently you live in the world of make believe Tony Valente! In order have MMA greats, there has to be a solid foundation… meaning, these MMA greats had to be inspired and learned from someone else. It seems as though you have too much idle time on your hands to bad mouth people that have up-lifted martial arts. You are precisely that type of person which degrades a whole martial arts community and pulls us ALL down! Or maybe you are just as ignorant as your previous posts. Take that crap somewhere else and show some respect!!
I train at the best gyms in the world, so next time you key board warriors take a road trip to Vegas, bring your corney out dated white belt karate for kids masters for some sparring, and bring your medical coverage also, because you will get carried out. End of story. You guys pratice karate to pick up D level girls or get away from your ugly wives. Your too deadly to fight mainstream so you have your bullshit to sell that your ready for the street. It will be nice when your era of losers finally die off.
LOL
There is a philosophy in martial arts: The “Trinity of Martial Arts” – Mind, Body, Spirit.
That being said, there are so many ego driven martial artists in a world where the philosophy is completely opposite. If you are being of Mind, Body, and Spirit, then it does not matter what style you practice, or what style I practice, what matters is that you work on your mind, body, and spirit to be a well balanced person.
You and I obviously view Martial Arts in a completely different manner.
Tony Valente… Sounds good! I’ll look you up when I’m in your area. Thanks for the invite.
Mr. Tony Valente, in regards to my last comment… My temper may have prompted the response and for that I do apologize. If you are a “Master”, then you will understand that no person trains in a vacuum. Therefore, there is merit to any martial art that one studies. A person’s martial skill/knowledge could be compared to forming a sentence: meaning each word forms that sentence more completely as you add to it. ALL of history’s great masters had a great deal to do with the formation of what we know as MMA. I speak for many when I say, I admired Bruce Lee as a child and still have great admiration for who he was… I also have great admiration for Shihan Gordon Doversola. Please respect one of history’s great masters as you would want yourself to be respected.
I think I’m getting in late on the conversation but wow… I have to say, there are some egos in the MA world that need to be checked. The gym I work out at says – CHECK YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR.
Everyone in the MA world, to us, is family. That’s why we bow to each other – to show respect.
Valente – you show none.
Tony Valente, I know of you, but never met you. Do I want to now? Not particularlly. Your threats and direct challenges and animosity to those that may not think like you is exactly what MA should avoid. It is NOT a good representation of respect or honor.
Glen mentioned the Martial Arts Trinity – mind, body, soul. It truly leads to balance and harmony with oneself.
I would hate for a white belt to enter your dojo willing to learn if they experience your thoughts and views on other people, schools, styles, systems and masters. If you cannot respect someone how do you expect to be given the same respect?
There’s a thing we experience in Hollywood – the whole Name Dropping thing. People who start NAME DROPPING actors, directors and producers and big names in the industry that they worked with. This is 10% of the people out there in this industry. 90% of ‘us’ realize that they are really insecure and rarely have ‘bite’ so-to-speak in the entertainment business.
I have a question: If someone trained in the TOP GYMS in the world – does that make that person more knowledgeable, deadly, or even better than one that trains in a small dojo in obscurity? I think NOT.
We all have the same intent when learning martial arts. It is – to learn. A Top Gym does not make a martial artist.
Mind, Body, And Soul does… You’ve portrayed yourself in a manner that most would say – you are what others perceive you to be.
From the discussion here I have to say others have shown more respect to the art – yet you haven’t – which is a contradiction to this whole discussion.
Glen just stated a fact – Bruce Lee may be the father of MMA, but there are many GRANDFATHERS out there. One of whom is Gordon Doversola who I wish to meet someday. As I would imagine there are many other arts in the 50s and 60s that promoted ‘mixing’.
I’ve talked with others about Gordon Doversola – those who knew him thought of him as a GREAT MAN. There are also others he butted heads with. The same is true of Bruce Lee. Great man – yet some he butted heads with too.
Here is a question for everyone: Small little threats amuse me. Because those who threat others are insecure with what they have and need to only prove it to themselves and will immediately say outloud – I HAVE NOTHING TO PROVE. That, my friends, is a contradiction. A great master would smile and laugh, and make light of any situation. A lost student will demand recognition for his abilities. Which one are you?
Seems like Gordon Dovarsola is of ‘great master-hood’ as he made his statement. “…with a smirk and a wave of the hand leaned forward to us and said, “I was faster” and laughed.”
He made no threats: he smiled and laughed at the situation.
To Tony Valente’s credit – he did actually go into the ring to fight. Too bad it was very disrespectful to Bruce Lee with the yellow outfit.
This is NOT a bashing other people session – it was meant only to show that MMA has a very long history BEFORE the UFC.
Bruce Lee is the father of MMA – Jeet Kune Do is his child. Its not about MY DAD IS BETTER THAN YOUR DAD: for those who don’t understand that analogy let me rephrase – It’s not about MY MARTIAL ART IS BETTER THAN YOUR MARTIAL ART – its about training, respect, and the history of MMA and the Martial Arts Trinity of Mind Body and Spirit.
For anyone to say one ‘art’ is better than another, well, they miss the whole idea of Martial Arts. The best Tae Kwon Do fighter may beat up the worst JKD Fighter. The best Shotokan Karate fighter may beat up the worst Mixed Martial Arts fighter. And vice versa. It isn’t about the style or the Art – it is ALWAYS and will ALWAYS BE about the person and their MIND BODY AND SPIRIT.
Tony Valente thinks differently than more balanced Martial Artists. If that’s okay for him, then that’s just him. Maybe he is misinterpreted – these are just words in the forum.
I obviously was misinterpreted based on what he responded to my article.
That being said, it doesn’t matter that Tony V got beat in some Professional fights. What matters is that the history of MMA goes WAY back – further than Bruce Lee. There are Grandfather’s of MMA out there – Bruce Lee is just the father of MMA.
I apologize for my harsh words then. But I state once again – you guys are wasting your breath with Tony Valente… He’s a joke with a sidekick.
To fat Fred, if you see me out anywhere, other than the playboy mansion,{because you’ll never get invited} come up to me and get knocked the fuck out.
To Tony V…
Are you THAT insecure that you have to KEEP throwing high status crap around like the Playboy Mansion?
Yes, I guess I’ll ‘expect’ to get knocked out like Takayuki Kohiruimaki and Kid Yamamoto. Those were awesome knockouts.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
You guys are wasting your breath discussing MA with Valente. The inner circle knows Valente is a clown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAALDHjQPjk
Watch him cry and give up – usually knock outs are to the head. He gave up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzCBaKD15WI
I’ve never seen ANYONE tap so hard on the mat pleading to be let go.
He’s just a Jim Kelly Bruce Lee wannabe.
http://killer7.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=920
Both guys who beat him are half his size. He also states that MMA will make traditional martial arts extinct.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JerpI5KnDY
Listen to the interviewer. He pauses when Valente states this – I bet he was trying not to laugh.
Here are my thoughts. If Valente decided to drop the act, learn how to fight instead of using JKD and be a Bruce Lee wannabe, he might be able to do some damage…
But obviously he can’t take a kick, and can’t fight out of a submission with guys half his size.
This is why he challenges people on the Internet. He’s a ‘pro’ challenging people on the internet.
Insecure? Other poster got it right. Unfortunately, he is insecure and needs to prove something – especially after those two professional fights.
You guys aren’t the only internet challenges he’s put up. Bruce Lee would NEVER approve of his antics.
OMG- Those videos are HILARIOUS!!! No wonder he needs to be in the Playboy Mansion to get a girl to be nice to him. They get paid to be nice to their guests. Its a perfect place for a lonely guy to boost his ego.
David Canyon is right – Name Droppers have to prove they are somebody when they are actually nobody.
Next time he steps into the ring, make sure his mom irons his shirt.
Insecure people mirror the images that are presented before them and they often confuse their Insecure behavior with that of Confidence. Insecurities floats to the surface in people when they feel threatened by others, afraid, and incompetent. They can’t make decisions for themselves; instead, they attempt to duplicate the lives of those who they “claim to not like.” Insecure people tend to bully those around them and wish that they could be half of what others are. If you find yourself never having anything good to say about someone that has never done anything to you……you are Insecure.
Confident people command attention without uttering one word. Upon entering any room, their presence is strong and they are self-assured and know exactly what they want out of life, and where they wish for life to take them. Confident people do not require the approval of others to feel important or validated. This assurance within them already exists. They don’t need the love of a spouse to feel whole, they already feel whole because of the love that presently resides within them. Confident people are competent and capable of all that life throws at them. There is no need for them to surround themselves with less than intelligent people to feel powerful. Instead, Confident people feel powerful because of their thirst for knowledge, and they surround themselves with the company of such people who possess a world of knowledge, life-experiences, and overwhelmingly intelligence. Confident people are life-long learners and they know that “Knowledge is the Real Power and True Key to unlocking and maintaining that Confidence.”
Monica Burns
http://www.inspirized.com/the_power_of_positive_thinking/insecurity_or_false_confidence.htm
That is a GREAT POST DCanyon!
But, to be honest, I’m not sure that Tony Valente is able to ‘see’ what it means. He is talking with blinders on and has to use threats in order to feel like he’s worth something.
“Insecure people tend to bully those around them and wish that they could be half of what others are.”
Search the web – this isn’t the first time he’s bullied people on the net.
Like I said – you guys are wasting your time with this guy.
Here’s what we know:
He trains in TOP GYMS. He goes to the Playboy Mansion. He challenges people to fight. He tells people they have ugly wives, that people are fat, and wants ‘an era of losers to die off’. This is a form of the Napolean complex and he’s like 6 feet tall. He needs to overcompensate for whatever he is insecure of…
Maybe he’s so insecure because two guys KO’d him in K1. So I understand and feel sorry for the guy.
I’ve had enough of the rants so unless this discussion gets back on track, I have nothing more to say to Tony Valente.
Fred, after you posted those videos looks like Valente isn’t really sticking up for himself.
I have to say – he did have the balls to go out there and fight: which says alot about other people who talk smack and don’t do anything about it.
My issue with the first video is this: Valente obviously LOVES Bruce Lee, but to come out there in a yellow jump suit is comical and a complete disrespect to Lee.
The challenges he makes online are also a disrespect – you should respect everyone. Regardless of who they are, what they believe in, what they train in and what they want out of Martial Arts.
If he were to watch the new Karate Kid movie Jackie Chan’s character says something that is so important.
Watch it for the messages alone.
fat fred! you poor soul less loser. your life is such a waste. No one knows you or cares. Your taking up space. down load some porn. And for the rest of you haters, the yellow suit was because of kill bill and it was entertaiment for the japanese people. I dont study JKD and i wear whatever the fuck I want. JKD doesent do jump spinining kicks and flying kicks. That was for entertainment. And it was. People need people to hate. Go bother tommy con-others. mister i dont spar, i dont fight, I wont allow fighters in my gym because I want to keep paying my rent. Mr. JKD. thats how you need to question. I’LL FIGHT AND SPAR ANYONE. I REALIZE most of you just got your first computer and think its 2003, its not. get on with your sad lives and hate someone else. Like I said, if you see me out, walk up on me and be ready, I dont talk in person.
Uma Thurman in Kill Bill with the yellow tracksuit was paying homage to Bruce Lee… You were paying disrespect to Bruce Lee. Yes, you can wear whatever you want… Know that there is responsibility in doing so.
I know of Doversola from many years ago. Interesting that he is still around and people are talking about him. It was tough to get even a brown belt in his system and most students did not last… There were a lot of tough fighters that came out of the dojo.
In fact, I found this little excerpt from a Cached MartialArts website/blog as I was researching Bruce Lee and his opponents… The question was posed – Who did Bruce Lee ‘actually’ fight?
This response was back in 2003.
“During his run there was another lesser know, though equally talented martial artist, Shihan Gordon Doversola (true Okinawa Te). Shihan Doversola was also active in movie choreography for such movies as The Manchurian Candidate. Bruce and Doversola did not particularly care for he eachother and they did have something between a fight and a sparring session. Jim Kelly and Joe Lewis told this story saying that Bruce started out winning with his incredible speed. Doversola admitted that he had never seen anyone as fast as Bruce, but that his blows didn’t stop Doversola out right. On Bruce’s third attack Shihan Doversola caught him and laid him down. Both masters were able to walk away…neither being the clear victor. It just goes to show that as great as Bruce was, there were and are others in his league.”
Here is the cached link: (Link)
Interesting discussion. In fact – ‘real’ Okinawa-te is MMA. It was a cross between Karate and Kung Fu. So Doversola, even if ‘his’ story was mythical really paralleled true okinawa-te karate.
Another topic that I found, “How Would Bruce Lee had done as an MMA?
Here’s one response referring to Doversola again. (Posted in 2007)
“I’ll guarantee you that the “grappling game” in JKD would not be nearly sufficient enough to win against a high level MMA fighter. It just wouldn’t.
That’s not to say he couldn’t pick up the necessary grappling skills, but put him in the ring against a top-tier MMA guy and it would be a difficult night for him, all things being equal.
There are 2 fairly popular stories of Bruce Lee fighting top-end world talent that I’ve heard of over the years. His fight with Wong Jack Man, where there are varaitions of who won the fight and what happened due to it being behind closed doors. Although when Jack Man challenged lee to public fight, Lee never replied or accepted the fight.
Then there was another fight that had Shihan Gordon Doversola fighting Lee in a match that several people witnessed. The stories as I’ve heard and read them over the years have Lee eventually ending up on the ground when his speed at striking didn’t shut down his opponent. While neither fight ever had a clear and decisive winner that anyone can for sure 100% claim, those two fights show that Lee had at the very least people who were potentially in the same league as he was on a fighting level back in his day. It doesn’t mean Lee wasn’t great, he was. It just means that perhaps the way we choose to remember him is a bit different from the true reality that he lived in.
For some good reading on Bruce Lee, go dig up the story about him and Jack Man and their dispute. A lot of came from Lee’s claims of being the only teaching kung fu to caucasians on the west coast. Many of the high profile students of Jack Man, who went on to teach kung fu themselves back in the day dispute that time line from Lee’s accounts….”
@ kuran. Bas Rutten claim that Lee didnt even know how to do an arm bar when he learned from Gene Lebell, one of the best judo men to ever walk the planet. Also Lee learned from Wally Jay and all his top friends that were all legends. And Wong Jackass had 20 years to fight Lee in a rematch or fight students against students and what did he do? He disapeared for 30 yrs and now wants to talk trash. Old people talk trash because they feel no one will beat there ass because there old. And as far as his students , NONE ever made it to k-1, pride, UFC, or even long beach internationals. Wong waited to make sure Lee was dead before he opened his mouth. A lot of people that play life safe and never try always have all the answers to everything, but in reality, there just HATERS. And gutless cowards begging for a reason to justify reasons for there fear.
@tonyvalente: I agree – Wong was a hater that talked but didn’t back up his words. At least Gordon Doversola did – based on account witnesses. I was talking to someone yesterday, and old school practitioner who was at Ed Parker’s gym when Doversola supposedly sucker punched Lee because Lee refused to fight.
It is so sad that someone like that died so young!!! Much like his son Brandon. But I guess, that’s what makes up a legend.
2kuran. As far as Lee getting sucker punched is such a lie. Lee payed him to learn his backfist, im sure He’s going to sucker punch him after someone pays you! Theres no way that story would have been quiet for 40 yrs. I do know Lee asked parker who his best fighter was and he said David German. Lee went to Vegas to spar him and couldnt do nothing. David was really big crazy and fast. And I know Benny the jet at 18 asked Lee to spar and Lee said no. But a million guys wanted to spar him after his first movie. There just wasent enough hours in the day.
@tonyvalente, true you can’t believe everything especially after a guy is dead. Benny the Jet was one of my idols.I trained at his gym back in the early 90s.
Glenn, well done another nerve touched with a few people. It always amazes me that people go off about things. We all love Martial Arts no matter what style we train. No one style will ever have it over another as it is down to the fighter and his natural or unnatural talent that will dictate the fight or simply their ability. Many fighters that have poor technique but more heart come out on top. People go on about Lee, and I mean no disrespect here, but there are also many martial artists that were as or more skilled than he but did not seek fame and as such will never be known to the general world but only to their students. Martial Arts is so deep and wide and ego so ingrained we will all never be rid of idiots out there but the core of MA will go on as we all put ourselves through the pain and years of training for one reason and one only, our love of what we are doing and how great it makes us feel personally whether that is strength of body, mind or soul.
Hey Kuran M.- I’d like to hear more about the fight between Doversola and Lee.Can you tell me who Zeno44 is? That’s the person that posted the comments you quoted. Can you lead me to anyone that actually witnessed the fight? Chris and Glenn- Did either of you ever hear about this directly from Shihan?
Chance,
The only story I heard from Shihan was long ago in the 80s. Someone in class asked about it and I kind of remember Shihan laughed it off saying he was faster. One of the black belts or brown belts was describing or telling the story to us. On how Shihan leaped in the air so fast and caught Lee off guard. Shihan said something about Bruce Lee being fast but he was faster.
But Shihan wasn’t telling the story – someone else was and Shihan was there.
I’ll ask Delano Sensei when I see him tomorrow.
The only place I can find this story is on YahooAnswers. I do not know who posted the comment but it is here. Maybe we can get a hold of this person.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100401194104AAdZeee
I heard it a couple of places actua…lly but never from Shihan himself. Jim Kelly mentions it in this interview (i think about the 8 min mark) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGTRugkyCFs
also saw something on a forum once. i would attach my screenshot but can’t, Glenn could you assist??
Chris,
What forums did you see it in? Jim only mentions that Lee took privates from Shihan to learn the backfist.
I know Shihan and Ed Parker didn’t like each other very much which is fine by me. If Ed Parker and Shihan would have put together whatever it is they were discussing, we wouldn’t of had Okinawa-Te for sure.
I recently found out that the Red Dragon Karate was part of Ed Parker school or a branch under it. This is why Shihan didn’t like Red Dragon and whenever I told them they were at a tournament he’d just do his ‘blah’ and imitate them and ask if I beat them. YEP… usually I did.
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what’s your complete history in marital arts? I am studying BJJ right now and hand technique as well.
I will right one Martial Arts bio up… someday! LOL
I would like to humbly add in what i have heard about Shihan Gordon Doversola and what I had heard from my father Sensei Joel Shapiro, and his times training under Sensei Richard Triplet one of Shihan’s top students through out his life.
Sensei Triplet and my father made trips the hour drive from Sensei Triplets dojo to train with Shihan every week. from what I have been told Shihan was a humble man, his philosophy went beyond martial arts and into every part of life. It embodied the beauty of MA which is mind, body, spirit. He was a great man and has passed away in the past few months.
As my father had trained under him and heard the story of his encounter with Bruce Lee who I have great respect for. I have nothing to back any of this as it was all word of mouth, but during a time Bruce Lee challenged many masters during the time he was first establishing his Martial Art style. He had a sparing match with Shihan and lost.
I don’t know what other students from the other branches and sensei have been told but I was sworn to never tell of this story,out of respect for both masters. I only say anything now because everyone here has heard about it in some way and I would like to clear some of the discontent about both sides. Both of them were Great masters. Shihan had respect for Bruce Lee and anything less than respect for him and his style is disrespectful towards Shihan. I only state this in hope of clearing up any malevolence held be anyone from any Martial Art style. One thing we are taught when we first start training is that it is OK to lose, its losing that makes us learn. there is no dishonor in it. so in the end who cares who lost, who cares if Tony Valente lost a match or two. He is still a Martial Artist and I respect him for that. As I have a respect for All of you who practice the Arts or have practiced. I have learned that disrespecting anyone creates pride, and pride will be our downfall.
My life has been affected by Okinawa-Te in so many ways, I learned respect, for the human body, for the human mind, for my fellow students. How to respect others in the rest of life. It has taught me how to learn. At its core Okinawa-Te was created to win the Okinawan’s freedom from occupation of the samurai. they sent their best fighters to the shaolin priests to learn. and the reason the shaolin priest studied and created Kung Fu was not war, it was to learn about, and control the human body and mind. they respected nature as well as all of life. and that was passed down into Okinawa-Te.
It is in a way very sad that Okinawa-Te was never documented almost at all, but that is in its nature as being passed down from Grand master to Grand master. In this was the system is very old school. I hope that I have not said anything to offend anyone, and/or their systems of study. my goal in posting is to express my humble thoughts and feeling. again I have nothing to back up what I have heard. But if anyone would like to get in contact with my they can find me at Seth.live13@gmail.com I would love to get in touch with anyone of Okinawa-Te.
and again on the subject of Bruce Lee. We were told to not go around saying that Shihan had beat up Bruce Lee. From what I know of Bruce Lee and of Shihan, both of them were great men and worthy of respect. As you noticed in the stories, shihan may have said he was faster, in private to some of his close students, but he never went around parading it he did not try to go on a ego trip. and both master walked away with mutual respect that only can be found in true Martial Arts.
Seth Shapiro.
Tony, you got some balls on ya to step into the ring let alone in Japan. You have good speed. But little respect for something you’ve never fought. Lots of guys only believe when knocked out; others will just take everybody’s word for everything.
But I have to say, the tapes on youtube show a blue\purple belt level if you were in okinawa te when I studied it. Only you dont move as well or protect your face. Our average green belts would have pounded you into a large smear on the sidewalk.
Plus, Doversola taught how to train yourself in perpetuity. How to focus your own training and break things down and be your own coach. He was a true master and the linneage to me will never matter at all — he invented the art; it was his. He was a great guy. May he rest in peace.
The Bruce Lee story when I was there ( Atwater 78–80), was that Lee talked shit on shihan who then formally challenged Bruce; who declined. Every dojo has it’s tales. True? False? Promo? who among us really cares at this point; it’s ancient history. Most of the better players at the time cross trained in judo and boxing— something shihan encouraged. Peace
But wait; there’s always more. Master Doversola taught way beyond regular sparring or kata. There was massive heavy bag work and full contact sparring. Sometimes I would dread going because I was tired after work and didn’t really feel like getting worked over yet again. He had an amazing take on the mental aspects. Sometimes things got weird, like one friday night we sparred by candle light. One candle in the dojo. That happened a few times, but this night my black gi was dirty and I wore the white one. I was the only guy there you could see— man did I get pounded!! In fact, I bowed out to save myself.
Then, there was a very rainy day in ’79 when he demonstrated the proper ‘tude to don when getting into crescent stance. He let out a very sharp yell as he dropped into a deep stance. Sharp but not that loud– not loud like say, you hear in shotokan. That day we had several kids in class. When he yelled, they went into mild shock. They got glazed eyes and stumbled all over the mat with their mouths hanging open. I got tunnel vision and couldnt seem to catch my breath but managed to hold the line unlike the kids. I was 23, 6’5″ 230lbs and he could have pushed me over with one finger at that point. Power of suggestion? Wouldn’t THAT be easy and reassuring.
I count him in with a small handfull of masters I have witnessed or studied under in L.A. He was top notch as a trainer. He didnt just teach. He used to say that as a pitch and it was true” I dont just teach you; I train you”. I regret dropping out from broken ribs…. I’ve had 10 instructors since 1973 including him and I’ve never seen anything like his art. The closest I’ve seen would be kenpo or kajukenbo but the whole approach to technique is very different. OTK moves and trains differently, slaps less, trains kicking differently. Not knocking them; they are obviously related. I think of all those arts as “hawaiian” anyway and “modern” as well— what’s in a name anyway?
i love how something I did 9 years ago is a life changing moment for Silova. And I train with world class UFC and thai fighters, not a school that guys go to get away from there fat wives for the day. Your school has never produced a k-1, UFC or any world class fighters, EVER. The only street credit you have is because of me posting a Jim Kelly video, and Jim has long forgotten your out dated, zero talented style of stiff snapy flicky day dreams of 1960. Post a video fat boy, and i bet you might get 2 views, both from yourself.
Master Tony: Someone repeated some base hearsay about Bruce Lee so therefore you are smearing deceased master Doversola. You are saying Otk is no good. We can conclude therefore that anyone who has studied it is no good ( like Dan Inosanto). Your main evidence to this is 2 things One, you can defeat any practitioner of Okinawa te; and two, there have never been any world-class fighters ( including the founder ) from that style.
It is embarassingly punky to smear dead people. Repeating some half-baked gossip I heard in a dojo is not smearing the dead Lee. But you, on the other hand, since you can easily kick anyones ass, get to tell “the truth” because you workout with tough guys. You are just a base punk who never met Shihan.
But then, I’m supposed to get a camera and post a video demonstrating an art I studied for only 2 years so that it can represent otk for you. All because Grandmaster Tony sez so. I’ve studied other arts much longer, but 2 years makes me one of those okinawa te guys in your mind.
I’ll put it this way: it’s the best stand-up I’ve seen. Smearing dead people isnt classy, although I’ll bet you’d say all of this to his family’s faces, seeing as you are mono-dimensional and all. And a green belt in okinawa te can defeat you in combat even after your vast improvement you are intimating over the last 9 years.
Let me know when you post a video, so I know what NOT to do.
@Tony, I guess no Okinawa te practitioners have ever been produced that are world class in your book. Ha! you a funny man, guess your book is not so full then. Funny that Joe Lewis rates OTK in his top 10 martial arts styles, lets not forget Sensei Richard Triplett either…The World Karate Organization (WKO) Light Heavy Weight Champion Title Belt held from 3/4/95 to 1/31/98; Tournament Promoters Association (TPA) Hall of Fame for Best Instructor in 1989; International Dojo of the Year Award 1998….. Some pretty good achievements I would say, or maybe Bob Wall, Jim Kelly, Martin Kove sound familar, all OTK students who are pretty well known I would say… could go on but hey closed minds are closed minds. All the best with your training and MMA but before you go slagging a style and Master that created it please check your facts as the numerous titles won by OTK in America and NZ speak for themselves.